Curse

Undressed · Feb 22, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I am posting this here because the most experienced players visit this section mostly.

The strength line pales compared to Divine Favor or especially Expertise in what it gives the player back for what he/she invests into it.

What if strength would higher the chance of double adrenaline per used skill, similarly to the furious upgrades (while those trigger on any hit).

Let's give a simple example:

[email protected] would give +10% chance of "double adrenaline" per used attack skill

[email protected] +25%

[email protected] +50%

[email protected] +75%

Would that cause an imbalance or would it shift the non-enchanted melee in favor of warriors again who seem to get overthrown (depending on the purpose) by thumpers in terms of pressure, which I consider not right.

Try not to post if you consider this ranger bashing, which is not the intention, and don't hit me for the lack of mathematical understanding in favor of balance etc..

What are your ideas for improving strength?

regards

Thom Bangalter · Feb 22, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I'm fine with strength sucking, warriors are too good already.

Bugeater · Feb 22, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I like strength the way that it is. It allows for more powerful skill effects because the inherent benefit of the attribute is weak.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 22, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I'm fine with strength sucking, warriors are too good already.

word. plus it's got some very decent skills in it.

Xasew · Feb 22, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Warriors are good already, the only thing I'd like to have adrenaline faster for would be my Backbreaker build. But hey, buffing Furious Mode to 20% would be a better solution.

Warskull · Feb 22, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Strength's primary effect sucks. However, strength has some good skills in the line that make up for it. Bull's Charge, Bull's Strike, Sprint, Rush, ect. Thus as an overall attribute strength is fine.

Patccmoi · Feb 22, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Now that there is only Block and no Evade, one thing that could be interesting is to make Strength allow you to power through Blocks (cuz you are teh strong!!!).

The way i'd see it is just something like when using an attack skill your target has 1% less chance to block for every point in Strength.

So say your target has 50% chances to block (Aegis) and you have 13 Strength, then their chance to block is reduced to 37%.

So Strength would read something like :

When you use attack skills, each point of Strength gives you 1% armor penetration and reduces your target's chance to block by 1%. Many skills, especially those related to surviving and inflicting damage, become more effective with higher Strength.

I'm not saying it's required though, warriors are good and Strength has very good skills in there, but i think it'd make Strength passive bonus more interesting without being really overpowered because it's just a small extra chance to go through block and only when using attack skills.

Seltack · Feb 22, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Make it useful in the same way eles/rits get balanced these days, make the numbers real big.

Double it.

So 12 strength =24% APP.

And make it on all attacks not just skills.

Sounds good to me ;-)

I mean, all the other primaries have been exploited/really useful (Divine favor=required for healing/prot, all manner of necro crap (spike,hex spam), fc air spike, touch rangers/thumpers/packhunters).

Gogo uber warriors imo.

Byron · Feb 22, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I'd be much more concerned about dead skill lines, and warriors have none of that happening. Every build seems to have that one terribly useful skill that makes you spec into an otherwise useless attribute. Mesmers have power drain, monks have gift of health, sins have feigned neutrailty, etc. So there is nothing to balance, IMO.

Let's worry about things like smiting prayers and deadly arts, which only have a few skills that may be worth taking.

TLLOTS · Feb 22, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I'm fine with strength sucking, warriors are too good already.

Agreed, they've really been balanced around Strength sucking, so anything you do is likely to either be so insignificant that it isn't noticeable, or it'll be overpowered. I don't believe there's much middle ground for buffing an attribute line like Strength at this point without many other significant changes.

skillsbas8 · Feb 22, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I'm fine with strength sucking, warriors are too good already.

QFT.
If strength's inherent effect was buffed, warriors would be completely broken.

Seef II · Feb 22, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

True. Maybe instead of AP each point deals +1 damage (like bonus damage) on attack skills? Pretty much the same effect, but favors the lower-damage weapons like swords more (49 @ 16swd --> 59 at 10 str, instead of the current ~55 damage on skill crit.)

Seamus Finn · Feb 23, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I'm fine with strength sucking, warriors are too good already.

Why was the thread not closed after this? The thread is done. Warriors are the second most slotted profession by far, just after monks, and unlike monks have far more viable competition for the roles they provide(Dervish, Paragon, Assassin, even Rangers sometimes). Why they would need any sort of "buff" is beyond me.

JR · Feb 23, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Why was the thread not closed after this?

Because a thread containing decent discussion most definately has a place on this forum? I am not in the business of locking threads the very minute someone feels that the initial issue has been put to rest.

tomcruisejr · Feb 23, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

QFT.
If strength's inherent effect was buffed, warriors would be completely broken.

they can buff strength and debuff tactics. "warriors" and "tactics" seem like an odd combination.

/binout

Seamus Finn · Feb 23, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Because a thread containing decent discussion most definately has a place on this forum? I am not in the business of locking threads the very minute someone feels that the initial issue has been put to rest.

I must have missed something. There is something to discuss?

JR · Feb 23, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I must have missed something. There is something to discuss?

Seeing as you seem intent on questioning, let me explain.

This is a thread, with a topic questioning whether Strength needs adjusting. It is not simply a case of 'oh look question answered, locked'. If someone wishes to divert the discussion to something related then that is absolutely fine, infact I encourage it. For example there have been a number of other issues brought up in this thread already, that someone may wish to expand on.

I really didn't leave it open to talk about my policy on locking threads, so consider that topic finished.

Divineshadows · Feb 23, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

This is a thread, with a topic questioning whether Strength needs adjusting. It is not simply a case of 'oh look question answered, locked'.

I feel that the inherent attribute of strength could use a re-work. Ever since dervishes were introduced into the game, it has felt to me like adrenaline costs on warrior attack skills were not balanced (i.e. slightly weak) in comparison to the extremely short recharges on dervish skills.

I would change strength by getting rid of the trivial amount of armor penetration on attack skills and adding this instead:

For each point in strength you have an additional 1.5% chance of gaining double adrenaline on every attack you land (this effect does not stack with adrenal gain skills such as enraging charge, dragon slash, etc.). With a furious mod and 12 in strength, a warrior would have:

.18 + (.82 * .1) = 26.2% chance of double adrenaline gain for each attack.

Byron · Feb 23, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Ever since dervishes were introduced into the game, it has felt to me like adrenaline costs on warrior attack skills were not balanced (i.e. slightly weak) in comparison to the extremely short recharges on dervish skills.

The tradeoff is survivability. Assassins get the same spiel. I never once thought that dervishes or assassins exceeded the power and effectiveness of a soild warrior build, and I think the maintenance of the class supports that. 3-warrior builds are good while 3-derivsh builds are probably gimmicky. Dervishes are at best specialized warriors, anyway.

Bugeater · Feb 23, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

For each point in strength you have an additional 1.5% chance of gaining double adrenaline on every attack you land (this effect does not stack with adrenal gain skills such as enraging charge, dragon slash, etc.). With a furious mod and 12 in strength, a warrior would have:

.18 + (.82 * .1) = 26.2% chance of double adrenaline gain for each attack.

While I like this suggestion the best of making Strength more interesting, I still don't really think that it's unbalanced the way that it is.

And your math doesn't really match the description that you gave - if it's truely an additional 1.5% then you'd just have .18+.1 = 28% chance. Also maybe the description should be "you have an additional 1.5% chance of gaining an extra strike of adrenaline" that would make it a little more succinct.